Kev: Prot pala itemization in WoTLK (continuing from last night)

[Daffyd]

Quick catchup for everyone reading this who isn't Kev: In keeping with Blizzard's plan to reduce clutter on the loot tables I believe prot (and retri but they use a lot of warrior gear already they'll just get better use out of it) paladins will be using the same plate as warriors in WoTLK leading to an effectively massive boost in itemization.

My reasoning:  

1.  Hit and crit are now dual purpose stats, they work for both melee and spell attacks.
2.  New prot ability: Shield of Righteousness (shield slam for palas).  Low cooldown and good (for a tank) damage which can't be mitigated (holy), scales with block value which in turn is converted from thrength at a 2Str:1BV ratio.
3.  New prot talent:  Touched by the Light.  Increases spellpower by 30% of your stamina, as far as I can tell from searching the known loot tables this will be the only source of spell damage for a pala unless you use a caster weapon (which will probably be a poor choice when you will have the whole plethora of warrior weapons open to you).
4.  New prot talent: Hammer of the righteous.  6s cooldown attack hitting current target and 2 others doing 100% of weapon damage as holy damage, has a bonus threat component.  High threat low cooldown attack that will scale best with a slow weapon (something like Heartless from ZA) and the damage cannot be mitigated.  Another reason pala tanks won't be using a caster weapon (almost all of which are fast), it will totally gimp their 51 pointer.

So what does it mean?  It means that prot palas don't have to worry about rare or missing loot any more.  They'll have more loot to choose from than you can shake a big stick at, SoR is going to be BIG threat, and spell damage is basically a freebie you get just from stacking stamina.  

In TBC most prot palas ended up wearing warrior pieces in a fair few slots and didn't get full benefit from them, in WoTLK they'll be wearing them in every slot and getting the full benefit.  I see that as an improvement.

[Choleric]

Doesn't this just make Protection Paladins far more like Warriors?  Seems like a lazy solution to the itemisation problem.  Wouldn't it have made more sense to have created more opportunities for Paladins to get gear?  Seems like they are blurring the line between the classes somewhat, and I can see Warriors having serious issues with this since they are now rolling against Paladins even more than they already are, not to mention the fact that Paladins are looking more and more effective at tanking than Warriors these days.

[Daffyd]

Doesn't this just make Protection Paladins far more like Warriors?

No, it just means they can use the same gear.  You could feasibly design a system where nothing whatsoever changes in terms of abilities but every class in the game uses the same gear.  

Seems like a lazy solution to the itemisation problem.  Wouldn't it have made more sense to have created more opportunities for Paladins to get gear?  

People complain, just like we do about the ret pala chest that drops in ZA.  Prot pala, holy pala, moonkin, resto druid, ret pala, druid tank, enhancement shaman, all gear that's currently only useful for one spec of one class. There is no enhancement mail outside tier sets (i.e. has str) at all in TBC, not a single piece.  Moonkins got 6 drops across all tiers of raiding, in comparism there are 62 cloth spell damage drops.  Mages iceblock if it goes wrong, warlocks howl of terror, priests primal scream, moonkins are supposed to suck it up and take the hit but you can't do that in cloth.  Ask Amberley what prot pala itemisation is like, and the same goes for the other specs I listed with the exception of the healers.  Holy palas got 30 drops and resto druids got 31, guess what Blizzard wanted you to do in TBC?

The loot tables are already cluttered, either some specs continue to be stiffed, the loot tables get even bigger than they already are, or the loot is made useful for more than one class.  Blizzard have chosen the latter, it even started with a change to feral druid mechnics a few patches back to make rogue gear better for feral DPS.  Of course that was the end of strength on leather which meant enhancement shamans were even more stuffed but that's something they fixed in WoTLK (enhancement shamans in WoTLK get AP from agility).

Seems like they are blurring the line between the classes somewhat, and I can see Warriors having serious issues with this since they are now rolling against Paladins even more than they already are, not to mention the fact that Paladins are looking more and more effective at tanking than Warriors these days.

The lines are not blurred in the slightest, if anything WoTLK defines them even more rigidly.  Prot palas are AoE tanks, feral druids are melee tanks, DKs are magic tanks, prot warriors are the jack of all trades.  Just because you use the same gear doesn't mean you're the same.  Like I said, I can design you a system without using tokens where each boss drops 2 generic items that are useable by every class in the game without modifying the end effect of a single ability just changing game mechanics.

[Splishy]

The more I think about this the more it just smacks of laziness - the problem with TBC was that they just didn't put a balanced level of kit aimed at different specs: Paladins became healers if they stuck with the gear most easily available, for example.

The easiest way to fix this in *my* opinion would be to make the loot tables more balanced, or even better - borrow a little idea from WAR: if you win loot from a PQ (I couldn't tell you about instance bosses as I've not been involved enough in that aspect as yet) you choose which item from the loot table you win. The game takes care of the roll, so there's no need/greed. Use a system like that and have an item drop that's equally useful for each class/spec, and if you win a loot roll you choose either that or a cash equivalent.

Yes, this would mean having massive loot tables, but I can't help but think that as things are proposed we'll be seeing EVERYONE wearing effectively the same gear, and I like a little individuality in the game.

[Choleric]

Sorry when I said they are blurring the lines between the classes I was refering to Prot Palas and Prot Warriors, not the other types of tank as well.  As you say, a Prot Warrior is a jack of all trades; but I feel this change makes Prot Paladins more able and closer related to the Warrior.  This is not a complaint mind you.

I don't understand why they veered away from the old loot tables: Each class getting a relatively even chance of getting a piece of loot.  What you'll have now is warriors rolling against paladins which is the aspect I feel is lazy.  Isn't one of the best things about the new Spell Power definition the fact that there will be less arguements over who gets to roll?   Healer gear and caster gear being easier to identify.

You know the numbers, so I'll believe you since you have the best-informed opinion.  I just calls 'em as I see 'em.

[Daffyd]

I don't understand why they veered away from the old loot tables: Each class getting a relatively even chance of getting a piece of loot.

Because a breakdown by class isn't fine enough, when you get to the hybrids you have to treat each spec as a different class as there's no commonality in gear whatsoever.  When you break it down by spec you see a massive disparity between the number of drops for the One True Spec (i.e. healer for the three healer hybrids and prot for warriors) and all other specs.  Daff didn't end up as a tree deliberately, my offspec healing gear was better than the tanking gear I poured months of effort into just from the drops I picked up that nobody else wanted!

What you'll have now is warriors rolling against paladins which is the aspect I feel is lazy.

As a raid leader I like it because it leads to more loot being actually used and despite having less chance of getting a specific drop because there will be more competition for it the overall gear level of the raid as a whole will rise faster.

You know the numbers, so I'll believe you since you have the best-informed opinion.  I just calls 'em as I see 'em.

Don't forget that most of this thread is just my speculataion, the numbers are real but Blizzard have never said they're merging warrior and pala tanking gear.  I'm just extrapolating from the little they have said and coming to this conclusion.

The spellpower change though, that's going to be a big fat failure.

[Choleric]

Because a breakdown by class isn't fine enough, when you get to the hybrids you have to treat each spec as a different class as there's no commonality in gear whatsoever. When you break it down by spec you see a massive disparity between the number of drops for the One True Spec (i.e. healer for the three healer hybrids and prot for warriors) and all other specs. Daff didn't end up as a tree deliberately, my offspec healing gear was better than the tanking gear I poured months of effort into just from the drops I picked up that nobody else wanted!

Explained and accepted  I see where you are coming from, I guess the problem lies in that you can't please everyone all the time and they have opted to please the majority who were unhappy with bad itemisation.  Playing a mage at the high end has been a lot less of a pain for me because upgrades are easier to come by so it's easy for me to sit here and say it was fine the way it was.

In regards to your view on individuality Splish, I agree.  It would be nice if they could at least change the colour scheme of a piece of armour depending on which class is wearing it, or even the option to customise your armour - now that'd be fun, but I doubt we'll ever see that in WoW, we'll have to convert to WAR for that - Chaos marauder here I come.  

Is this vanity on a level of "wtb glow on sword"?  Ah well.

[Daffyd]

In regards to your view on individuality Splish, I agree.  It would be nice if they could at least change the colour scheme of a piece of armour depending on which class is wearing it

Got to remember that we're talking about raid gear here, that means most people will be wearing their tier sets for the really visible stuff and they are most definitely unique for each class.

WAR style dyes and trophies would be very cool though