Author Topic: Hunting for Dummies...  (Read 1110 times)

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Offline Ary

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Hunting for Dummies...
« on: June 02, 2008, 04:40:07 PM »
Okay, so, I thought I'd contribute a little bit here for the hunters in the guild to put their own two-penneth on.  Bloggish styled, with chapters every so often.

No hanging about, or Daff'll get tetchy(er), so straight in on Chapter One - "Why the hell are you not using Scorpid Sting?"

"Why the hell aren't you using Scorpid Sting?"

To bang my own drum for a mo, I have a reputation amongst many peeps on the server as a bit of an oddball.  Most hunters tend to streamline their toon for maximum DPS, and this is not a bad thing - after all, in end game instances, not having that powerful output of pewpew can mean the difference between winning or a wipe.  My approach to hunting was always multi-layered, however.  Back in "the old days", when I was leading more and more raids, I would find that myself and others were having to compensate for other players that had less experience or less kit.  TO sum it up quickly, I developed into a "failsafe" member of the team who could cover for things if the plop hit the fan, which it quite often did, let me tell you!

Back when I started doing KZ and Heroics, this was already taking shape - I was notorious for having more HP than many tanks, and this was often at the expense of my damage output - although this was rarely lacking.  My spec was ( and still is) not quite the standard (and I shall go into this in a different chapter) as I chose abilities that would help keep me, and others, alive, so we could keep delivering DPS.

And at last, I get to the point - it was during these initial raids that I really learnt the true value of keeping the tank up.  It's simple - if you control your aggro, and the tank stays alive, you tend to win.  The best way a hunter can do this, sometimes even more valuable than a trap or a pet ability, yet still undervalued by up and coming hunters, is Scorpid Sting.  So, what does it do?

First, it does NO DAMAGE.  Cue the QQs from DPS monkeys.

What it DOES do is reduce the chance that the struck mob will hit anything with a physical attack, be that ranged or melee, by 5%.

Now, this may not sound much, but it can mean the difference between getting hit only 19 times out of 20.  Within that 20 potential hits, the amount that succeed may well be reduced by dodge, blocks or parries, too.  And throughout a fight, this adds up fast.  Try telling Phred he is going to take 5% less damage because you are using Scorpid Sting and he would most likely respond as if you had just offered him beer, it's that handy!

Lets say we have a boss hitting for about 2000 dps - over the course of a minute that means your principle soaker of damage, the tank, is going to take 120,000 damage, which hopefully the healers will be able to cope with.  Your Scorpid Sting, statistically speaking, should reduce that by 6000 damage per minute.  That is equivalent to a greater heal by a decently geared Priest or Shaman.  Also, that is levelling the data out - if that 120000 damage is done in single hits every four or more seconds, there is everychance you will be reducing that damage by even more, even as much as 8-10k.

Which is way more damage reduced that Serpent Sting will ever add on.

Basically, if you are the only hunter in a group, your first sting of choice should be Scorpid - if there is more than one, you should either set up a rotation, or just be very clear WHO is planting that lovely fizzing arrow of mob-nerfingness.

Okay, next time, "Why are you REALLY specced 41/20?"

o/
« Last Edit: June 02, 2008, 04:42:24 PM by Ary »
"Aryina roars with fury, Mjolnir howls with joy".

"Though I may hunt through the Valley of the Shadow of Death, I shall fear no evil, for I am the angriest bitch in it, with a wolf to match..."

Offline Phred

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« Reply #1 on: June 02, 2008, 05:24:53 PM »
Quote from: Ary
What it DOES do is reduce the chance that the struck mob will hit anything with a physical attack, be that ranged or melee, by 5%.

To get this correct: Scorpid Sting reduces the hit chance by 5%? O.o How long does this last?

And sorry but : fudge me that´s one handy thing!
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Offline Ary

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« Reply #2 on: June 02, 2008, 10:22:24 PM »
Quote from: Phred
To get this correct: Scorpid Sting reduces the hit chance by 5%? O.o How long does this last?

And sorry but : fudge me that´s one handy thing!

From Wowhead;

Scorpid Sting
9% of base Mana
35 yd range
Instant cast
Requires Ranged Weapon
Stings the target, reducing chance to hit with melee and ranged attacks by 5% for 20 sec.  Only one Sting per Hunter can be active on any one target.
 
And the sweetener?  No CD.

Basically, there is NO excuse for the MT and even OT targets not to have this ticking.  And, if you notice the wording, ONE hunter can affect TWO targets with this.  Or MORE.

Use this Macro, for example

(First, set your focus to the MT)

/cast Scorpid Sting
/stopcasting
/assist focus

Do this, tab through your enemies, and you can plant the sting on each target, while returning to DPS what the tank is twonking - oh, and it does no damage, so no CC issues...

Ary xx
"Aryina roars with fury, Mjolnir howls with joy".

"Though I may hunt through the Valley of the Shadow of Death, I shall fear no evil, for I am the angriest bitch in it, with a wolf to match..."

Offline Phred

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« Reply #3 on: June 02, 2008, 10:58:27 PM »
A tad mana intense when i understand it correct, but really usefull imo.
I´m not aware if i experienced that in the past, but that´s one nice talent!
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Offline Jaxc

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« Reply #4 on: June 03, 2008, 06:03:03 AM »
use when boss enrages

Offline dontdiejim

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« Reply #5 on: June 03, 2008, 10:42:00 AM »
Quote from: jaxc
use when boss enrages

You should try tranquillizing shot for that I would have thought.
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Offline Jaxc

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« Reply #6 on: June 03, 2008, 01:05:42 PM »
naw, pro uses that thingie
its no sport otherwise

Offline Ary

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« Reply #7 on: June 03, 2008, 04:05:42 PM »
Quote from: dontdiejim
You should try tranquillizing shot for that I would have thought.

Since it's been mentioned, Tranquilizing shot is possibly the only hunter ablility less well understood than Scorpid.

Tranq works to remove only ONE thing - a Frenzy effect.  It does not sooth an Enrage by any measure.  It is highly subject to situation, as there are only a rare few mobs or bosses in WoW that actually HAVE Frenzy effects - possibly the best known to the Seeds is Halazzi - Tranq makes a huge difference there - but also Aeonus from Black Morass can throw a wobbler, Frenzy-style, and a hunter should always have tranq ready for this situation.

As to being mana intensive, that is very subjective - first of all, most hunters are going to need to take mana pots during any fight longer than 2-3 mins.  Most BM hunters will get a ranged Attack speed of around 2 seconds for an Auto, maybe  alittle lower - if we assume that as the "guidance" for the hunters shot rotation, they will space each Auto Shot with a Steady Shot (I'll cover this in another entry).  That means that every 2 seconds, the hunter will expend 110 mana.

Now, if we assume that a hunter will start a standard tank and spank engagement, after MDing, at 6k mana, and starts with a Hunter's Mark (60 mana) then proceeds to let an Auto shot fly, then a Scorpid Sting, and then 9 rotations of a true Auto/Steady Rotation, the hunter will expend around 1600 mana every 20 seconds.  Most hunters, without mana pots or mana oil, should be able to maintain the Scorpid, and a classic BM rotation, for 80 seconds, give or take.

Add in Mana pots and Mana oils, and that number rises, more so, if the mana pot is the Fel variety.  Then there is basic regen to take acount of.  Alot of raiding hunters do not have any MP5 of their own to speak of, but a hunter bearing two one-handed weapons in a raid will most likely have an extra 28MP5 (336MPM), extending the shooting time even further.  Add in a Major Mageblood potion, and you get even more back.  Drop back on your damage for a few seconds, pitch in Aspect of the Viper at the same time, and you can go even longer.

To the point - Scorpid Sting is not something to be saved to until the end, it should be in play all the time.  With two or more hunters and a proper rotation, you should be able to keep this up throughout a fight.  I can usually maintain mine, solo, on Nalorakk, with no problems mana wise.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2008, 04:06:06 PM by Ary »
"Aryina roars with fury, Mjolnir howls with joy".

"Though I may hunt through the Valley of the Shadow of Death, I shall fear no evil, for I am the angriest bitch in it, with a wolf to match..."

Offline Phred

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« Reply #8 on: June 03, 2008, 06:55:18 PM »
Go go go hunters
Thx for teh info  Will have a look how the debuff image looks
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Offline Ary

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« Reply #9 on: June 03, 2008, 09:47:20 PM »
Quote from: Phred
Go go go hunters
Thx for teh info  Will have a look how the debuff image looks
Phred, anytime you've tanked for MJ and myself, you would have had this debuff on your target :-)
"Aryina roars with fury, Mjolnir howls with joy".

"Though I may hunt through the Valley of the Shadow of Death, I shall fear no evil, for I am the angriest bitch in it, with a wolf to match..."

Offline Phred

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« Reply #10 on: June 03, 2008, 11:38:11 PM »
Well ... sadly that wasn´t too often   Still i´m not aware about the difference.  
Gonna have to recruit you for a raiding guild in WotLK
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Offline Arekh

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« Reply #11 on: June 04, 2008, 06:40:11 PM »
As usual Ary gives hunters a good name. Looking forward to learn more from you hun, and I'll make sure to use the scorpid sting in even more situations.
"I didn't realize babies come with hats. You guys crack me up. You don't have jobs. You can't walk or speak the language. You don't have a dollar in your pockets but you got yourselves a hat so everything's fine."

Offline Jozef

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« Reply #12 on: June 11, 2008, 10:03:19 AM »
Ary told me to use scorpid sting in a gruul run, since that time its the only sting I use. Serpent sting may give you 60-100 more dps but like Ary said I rather reduce the damage on a tank so we can survive longer.

I am able to keep hunters mark and scorpid sting for a long time (sometime I have 80% of my mana left after a 5 min fight, still don't know how I managed that). I normally have a good rotation for my shots when I am the only hunter. I would like to see a bit more communication between hunters if there are more in one group/raid. So that not all the hunters are overwriting each others marks and scorpid stings all the time.

Hunters mark gives a AP buff that stacks after dealing damage with a ranged attack, if one hunter keeps hunters mark up you will have the max buff you can get from it all the time. When another hunter overwrite it the buff is gone and you it slowly stack again.

I hope we can sort this out in the next Seed raid.

I hope you all understand what I mean  

Offline Splishy

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« Reply #13 on: June 11, 2008, 12:44:48 PM »
This thread delivers. Hunters are a class I really don't have a great deal of knowledge of (except that all loot is hunter loot, right?) so anything that helps expand that knowledge can only be A Good Thing ™
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Offline Ary

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« Reply #14 on: July 01, 2008, 05:42:05 PM »
Hai, I heard you spec 41/20/0???

Basically, there are two primary raiding specs in Hunter circles today that if you aren’t using, you are seen as somewhat of a dimwit.

And to be fair, these specs are GOOD at what they are designed to do – cause as much damage as possible.

First, and far less common, we have the Survival Spec – sometimes as high as 0/20/41, but often placing more in Marks for Scattershot and other niceties, this spec is designed on two principles – first, the full 30% increase to crits in the Marks tree, and most pivotal, the Survival skill “Expose Weakness”, which is a raid wide physical damage booster.  Do you want an extra 25% of a hunter’s Agility added to your Attack Power?  On a well geared hunter, that can be as much as adding 200 or more AP, almost as much as Blessing of Might, and sometimes even higher.  You bet you want it.

Secondly, the staple raider, the 41/20/0 Beast Mastery hunter – but here we find differences of opinion.

Y’see, why the numbers are pretty solid, the places to put the talents aren’t – some insist that 5/5 Imp Aspect of the Hawk, for a 15% Speed boost to shooting every 10% of your shots is a must have – others say it gimps your shot rotation, and in some fights you’ll be running Aspect of the Viper so much that Hawk won’t get a look in.  Others insist that Efficiency in the Marks tree, to reduce your mana cost on shots is vital, whereas others say it is more useful to have Imp Hunter’s Mark, for more melee boosting.  Extra 110 AP to all?  You bet.  Also, the amount of talents poured into the pet damage trees depend greatly on the individual.  Improved Mend Pet, to decurse and make pet healing easier, or Imp Revive Pet, to pick your faithful friend up faster and cheaper after he drops?

No two hunters seem to be able to agree, completely.

Recent theories that have been put forward, even on Elitist jerks, involve a small variation, 41/17/3, where 3 points are poured into Humanoid Slayer, taking them from the last 3 points of Mortal Shots – given how many humanoids you face, this actually means more damage versus those targets.

At end game, and by this, I refer to mid Black Temple and Sunwell, these decisions can be that critical, as if you aren’t healing or tanking, you are damage dealing.  Before that, however, I feel the lines are slightly blurrier…

Okay, to show an example, some of you may have heard of a Night Elf Rogue who has gained notoriety of late for tanking the ROS in BT, and the first phase of Illidan in BT.  Long story short, he maxed his Agility and dodge to such levels that a hit was a near impossibility in melee.  Simply put, if your dodge, parry, block and “miss” ratings add up to more than 100%, you ain’t going to get hit unless you are very unlucky – there is a chance to get hit, but it is VERY small.

I have used the same theory with my hunter for certain situations since TBC came out – thanks to the dodge talents in BM and Survival, I can raise my basic dodge to 42% unbuffed, with a 9% parry chance.  Add on the skill Deterance (25% boost to Parry and Dodge for 10 seconds) and a high HP, and Aryina becomes a handy emergency tank with a 109% unbuffed avoidance chance – and the buffing usually raises that 3-4%.  Which is how I’ve managed to tank nasty Raid Elite mobs, such as the Ushers from KZ, and even bosses like Moroes, Romulo, Netherspite, Jan’Alai and the big fellow, Gruul, for anywhere from 10 to 20 seconds before either having to hit FD, killing the boss, or falling.  Given how easy a hunter (should) find it to ride the threatmeters, this has proven a most useful safety measure on ten man runs, in particular.  But it does not suit everyone.

This is just one example of how a hunter can be more than just a damage dealer – “survival” in the purest, rather than talent sense, is often far more useful as long as you have a hand on the basics – 9 times out of ten, if the hunter is doing poor damage, it’s due to poor play rather than poor talenting.  Kiting mobs in Hyjal, for instance, is all about speed, movement and survival rather than firepower.

Back in HV, the Raid-Ready Status awards were given according to stats and spec – one thing I feel they got right was saying that the BM hunters must have “Bestial Wrath” and The Beast Within” specced – and THAT WAS ALL.  I’d add on Serpent Swiftness, as it is the primary damage booster, but as for the rest?

Spec what works for you – try stuff out.  I, for example, have never seen Mjolnir benefit in his hit percentage from “Animal Handler” – thus I don’t use it, despite it’s popularity.  I always take “Hawkeye” from Survival, as I find the extra range really useful – since the Epic Bow quests pre-tbc, I won’t spec without it.

Try stuff – go spec Min/max when you hit BT and Sunwell.  You really should not need it till then.  And so it is known, I run 45/5/11 - so I must be a dimwit.

Tell that to Jan'Alai.
"Aryina roars with fury, Mjolnir howls with joy".

"Though I may hunt through the Valley of the Shadow of Death, I shall fear no evil, for I am the angriest bitch in it, with a wolf to match..."